George W. Bush

Jojo: “Strongest life changers – De Bono, Pirsig, Chomsky and Dawkins. Heaped on with Psychology, History, Philosophy and Science. Maybe you could start – but your probably too old”

Yes, I am older than you are.

I have read de bono and chomsky. I listened to dawkins on the Michael Medved show. I disagree with chomsky and dawkins. De bono doesn’t have a political agenda in any of the books of his I have looked at.

Now I’ll name four: -Dennis Prager’s “Think a Second Time” (or any book by Prager) -Michael Medved’s autobiography “Right Turns” -Dinesh D’Souza’s “What’s So Great About America?” (or any book by D’Souza) -anything by Ann Coulter

of the four writers you mention, I’ve read two and have listened to a third interviewed on the radio.

Of the four I mention, how many have you read? how many have you heard interviewed on the radio or TV?

Is that how you talk to people to persuade them to your side?

I figured a while ago that you can not be persuaded. I felt your superficial statements needed a rebuttal. (Not for you, but for people reading this with reason and wisdom)

_Is that how you would negotiate with osama bin laden, Iran, or North Korea?

Snip all the Gandhi stuff_

These topics have much more depth, than framing it the way that you do. I’m not going to start now (as I said I feel the environment is a much more important issue). But I will say one thing. You speak Dogma. Osama Bin Laden, Iran and North Korea have dogmatic regimes. In the end, its all dogma. Religion (Islam, Christianity), Patriotism, Fascism, Soviet Communism, Nationalism – dogma. Out-dated. Stuck. Dead or Dying. The future: Reason, Science, Technology, the Environment. Either it happens or we’re dead.

Salle: Is that how you talk to people to persuade them to your side?

Jojo: I figured a while ago that you can not be persuaded. I felt your superficial statements needed a rebuttal. (Not for you, but for people reading this

So is that the language you use to persuade people reading this to your side?

gawd stop arguing…

you’d rather the debate stop than jump in on my side? :(

Jojo, liberals often think of themselves as compassionate – certainly more compassionate than conservatives. And yet often their words are not compassionate, especially their words toward conservatives. on the contrary, their words are often hostile.

Salle, I’ve come to notice that you really get hung up on generalizations and labels. This seems strange to me since you are so quick to point out fallacies in other people’s arguments. Things are what they are. Saying that people with Liberal ideals more often speak lacking compassion is a statement spoken out of ignorance. Your own actions conflict with the points you stress upon those you are arguing with. It’s rather contradicting when you speak in a nice guy tone, trying to make your challenger seem rude and out of line, but then go ahead and make comments like that. Regarding your book list- I recently watched D’Souza speak on CSPAN2 , and I enjoyed hearing him speak, but I’m thinking you need to avoid the Coulter, because I can hear her voice in comments you make like that last one, and it isn’t flattering.

hi vano.

“Saying that people with Liberal ideals more often speak lacking compassion is a statement spoken out of ignorance”

Compare the speech of the liberals on this forum with the conservatives on this forum. Compare the speech of all the liberals you know or are acquainted with with all the conservatives you know. Compare the liberal books at the bookstore with the conservative books. Read the columns of liberal editorialists and compare them to the columns of conservative editorialists.

“Your own actions conflict with the points you stress upon those you are arguing with”

How so?

“recently watched D’Souza speak on CSPAN2 , and I enjoyed hearing him speak”

Great! What points did you agree with him on?

“you need to avoid the Coulter”

She is in 90% agreement with d’souza.

“you really get hung up on generalizations”

As dennis prager says, all wisdom is generalization; and the thing to ask about generalizations is whether they are accurate or not.

“This seems strange to me since you are so quick to point out fallacies in other people’s arguments”

The quicker one is to point out fallacies, the better.

vano, just give up. your liberal and you suck. Salle can most definitely prove his point and you know it. Bush is amazing.

yaaay! :D

Hi vano.

We all make generalizations; there is nothing wrong with generalization; the question is: Is a particular generalization accurate?

There is no call, however, for profanity and incivility.

Profane statement:

“just for shits and giggles, what is your Religious preference?”

Uncivil statement:

“I don’t really know what the hell you just said”

Uncivil and profane statements:

“Maybe you should do something other that take in all that bullshit your parents feed you, or at least learn about what’s going on so you have something to back up your sorry ass.”

“Oh, and for the people who are saying that Americas bashing Bush is “unpatriotic” and we should leave: you’re the reason America is so fucked up, and why we are hated around the globe”

Now on to the Generalizations:

“we are hated around the globe”

“Oh, I’m sorry, you don’t want people who don’t favor destroying third world countries for resources?”

Your generalization in the above sentence is: America destroys third world countries for resources.

Accurate? No, that generalization is not accurate.

“Bush’s defenders had no valid arguments”

“and sorry for offending “your” people. To any Dutch people, whose feeling hurt for me not pointing out that they “invented sucking resources out of poor 3thworldcountrys,” I’m sorry. So, very, very sorry”

Your generalization in the above is: Dutch were pioneers in exploiting third world countries.

I’m going to refrain from commenting on this. I prefer to stick to the topic of Bush and America, which is the subject of this webpage.

“I just don’t like being party of a country that bullies other countries to get what it wants”

“everyone in America knows their history”

Accurate? debatable, but I would say that that generalization is not accurate.

“Why am I arguing with a Christian right wing nut? There really is no point”

“I just want peace, and I’m a firm believer that it can’t be achieved by force”

Your generalization in the above sentence is: Peace can’t be achieved through force.

Accurate? No, that generalization is not accurate.

“This whole thing is a mess”

“I will follow the humane way…the true way”

Your generalization in the above: Liberalism is humane and true.

Accurate? No, that generalization is not accurate.

“Being Conservative and growing up have nothing to do with each other”

Accurate? No, that generalization is not accurate.

“Yes, current Conservative ideals (in my eyes, from what I’ve seen) benefit individuals as opposed to everyone all around”

Accurate? Depends what you mean. If you mean that Conservative ideals place a higher value on liberty and freedom than on equality, then your generalization is accurate.

and Bush most definitely IS amazing. a topflight leader and a good and decent person.

i agree :D

Obviously, was you look at those pictures on here the joke is on anyone supporting BUSH . Because anyone truly supporting BUSH today, as the facts are being revealed, are still grasping in hope that the man representing them and our country is NOT a religious murder like the Al Quida. It’s truly sad to read the hateful words of his supporters because it’s shows a lack of intellect and debate. There will never be a WIN for this debate. Some people will blindly follow him and others will be enlightened to know the horrible facts. It’s unfortunate, but this is the way our country runs. There is NO debate here. Only hatred and lack of human respect within our society. Both sides show a complete lack of understanding - which is why we have this man as President in the first place. History will reveal the truth - until then why not join forces to help come up with a solution? PEACE begins in our own back yards—and if this BLOG is any evidence of where we stand – we will never see PEACE in our grandchildrens lifetime. THAT is sad.

Hmmmmm…... I just noticed I was censored…. which is evidence of everything I just stated above. When freedom of speech goes then we have lost ALL liberties.

Salle, I’m not even going to dignify whatever you are trying to say with the whole conservatives are more compassionate with how they talk than liberals. It’s pointless, and I guess you need to grab onto something, because your arguments are – I’m at a loss.

So far you have given us Bush is a great leader because he speaks nicely and he is Christian. (And I still don’t know how a pre-emptive, not defensive war, can be justified).

Thank-you BubbleGumSinger1. There is no debate here. Enough said.

Jojo: “the whole conservatives are more compassionate with how they talk than liberals”

That has been demonstrated on this forum.

More importantly though, conservative policy is more compassionate than liberal policy.

For instance, if you view things emotionally and superficially, communism may look more compassionate than capitalism. After all, communism appears to be about working together whereas capitalism appears to be about selfishness.

But in practice, communism has never worked and in fact has led to tremendous suffering and death. And in practice, capitalism has led to the richest and happiest societies.

Another example: If you view things emotionally and superficially, giving money to bums and vagrants appears to be kind, and putting them in jail or an asylum appears to be cruel.

But in practice, if you give money to bums you are hurting them because they will most likely use the money for drugs or booze. And putting bums in jail or an asylum is the best thing for them.

Jojo: “I guess you need to grab onto something”

I do. I think we all need to grab onto something. I’ve grabbed onto conservatism; you’ve grabbed onto liberalism.

Jojo: “So far you have given us Bush is a great leader because he speaks nicely and he is Christian”

Where did I say that?

I do recall saying, “speak softly and carry a big stick” is a good policy.

Dennis miller put it this way: america has a long fuse but at the end of the day it’s connected to a big-ass bomb.

Jojo: “And I still don’t know how a pre-emptive, not defensive war, can be justified”

Like this:

saudi arabia and other middle east nations were scared enough of bush after he took down saddam that they gave him data that led directly to his foiling other 9/11-style attacks on american soil.

if you were to take a poll right after 9/11 on how long it’d be before another terrorist attack on america, few would’ve guessed it would be this long (and counting).

Jojo: “your arguments are – I’m at a loss”

Agreed. Yes, I think you did lose.

well, jojo, I just re-read all your statements as well as all my statements (which pretty much start on page 2). I stand by what I have said. readers of this forum can read our statements and decide for themselves who acquitted himself better.

Wow. You are persistent.

Agreed. Yes, I think you did lose.

I was trying to be polite and avoid saying that you have your head up your arse. But I agree that ad hominem attacks are not productive. But please I beg of you, I need to see this news report on saudia arabia giving Bush intel to foil more 9/11 style attacks, because they were scared of the US attacking Iraq. Did I say that correctly? This is priceless.

But even if this is true, does it matter? And this is my central point. This was not Bushes intention when he went to war with Iraq. It was the WMD . Bush from his own mouth and from his cabinet justified the war with Iraq on the basis they had WMD . There was no international support. This was a pre-emptive war. And now universally everyone agrees this was a huge 700 billion dollar mistake (2 trillion indirectly), and no WMD found. As I said it would have been honorable for Bush to resign. Every other justification after this is irrelevant. The world doesn’t work like that. Even if something supposedly good comes from either a lie or a massive screw-up, sorry, but you still have to go.

Snip the simplistic stuff – but this is a doozy—But in practice, if you give money to bums you are hurting them because they will most likely use the money for drugs or booze. And putting bums in jail or an asylum is the best thing for them.

Maybe you could provide evidence that at least 50% of ‘bums’spend there money on drugs. Would you agree that if under 50% of ‘bums’ don’t use drugs or drink that we should keep giving them money? Maybe there should be a cost analysis – let’s see what is cheaper – building jails for ‘bums’ or giving them money on the street – and go with the cheaper. Or maybe lets do what you say is compassionate and put the ‘bums’ in jail! I’m sure they would love it – they could finally get all the man love they have been missing out on. That’s compassion! (Please don’t go off into boring zone, I was being sarcastic)

I do. I think we all need to grab onto something. I’ve grabbed onto conservatism; you’ve grabbed onto liberalism.

I’ve grabbed onto evidence, reality, science. (There are conservatives like this, and I’m happy to agree with their assertions if they provide some kind of evidence) You’ve grabbed onto long winded discourse that weaves and bobs into who knows where and baseless assertions without once backing it up. I don’t see the liberal-conservative dichotomy, I see evidence based reality vs faith based reality. Maybe if I was insane, drug-induced or christian, I could probably better empathize with your faith based reality.

readers of this forum can read our statements and decide for themselves who acquitted himself better.

With the votes so far under the bush negative categories, I think most people agree with me. But I know most Americans and even more of the world agree that Bush is a criminal and a liar.

And how.

he is soooooo fuckin dumb hes basicly executed hunderes of people in new orleans, he sent the army in to shoot looters rather than send aid workers to help the people. yes inevitabley their will be looters but these things happen looting is rong but its almost a natural intsinct, survival. they loot coz they hav nothing.

Hurricane Katrina ia an event that the United States can hopefully learn from. However, it isn’t accurate to pin it all on Bush, nor to call him a murderer in this particular situation. There were many events that took place in New Orleans, that were very strange and I don’t quite understand. Yet, the government was called on it. we can only hope that some sort of knowledge was gained.

he dodged the draft for vietnam and was on cocain, a true patriot! ;]

What is a patriot and do we want one for a president? If you’re talking about the chauvanist patriot, of which I see alot of these days and in this forum, probably not.

I would have dodged the draft, but if I became president afterwards, I wouldn’t start a war, for my draft dodging would be for my idealogical beliefs, not for my own self centered reasons.

As far as cocaine, big whoop. if he wants to put harmful chemicals in his body, let him.

He is not the best liar, I marked that one off, we could tell when he is lying.

GWB is one of the best presidents. Being a wartime commander, he is gonna get alot of heat. At leaste he and Channey have the guts to take the fight to the arabs instead of having attacks here on the home front.

u agree virginiason :)

Red scare… Terrorism scare…? Hmmmm.

Hmm…virginiason, while your point that he has the audacity to engage malignant forces is valid, GWB had little evidence to warrant his aggression against the Iraqis. I grant that Saddam was corrupt and I certainly agree that the incapacitation of his hegemony is beneficial to global welfare, affairs in Iraq had little to do with affairs in America. (Namely WTC and subsequent attacks and threats)Thus, by mobilizing military forces, GWB only put American lives at risk over what was a hunch at that time, and a hoax now. America is not a police force. While the American military did a good deed by diminishing the Al Qaeda, America does not inherently have an obligation to elicit world peace. Thus, the mobilization of the military was essentially nothing more than a pompous exhibition of the “glory’ of GWB , and an unecessary waste of human lives. Now doesn’t that seem a bit hypocritical coming from a man who so strongly advocates the sanctity of life? Additionally, actions GWB has taken throughout the course of his 7 year term and even the eloquence of his speech further proves that he is arguably the most incompetent man to ever lead this esteemed country. Does he really merit the designation of “one of the best”?

this book is sooo funny http://www.buzzflash.com/store/items/425

I know goldfish, wait, I know fish tank pebbles that are smarter than this guy. Sad, really.

And now he is asking more funds for Iraq….hmm…another wasted money….

http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,808,n,n

Gives you a good idea why Bush lovers, the religious, etc have war lust, and are violent.

stop acting like a kid. not all religious people have warlust. not all atheist people are communistic and not all animals are sheeps.

Did you even read the article?

i dont need to. yes i did. but stop put people into boxes. stop generalizing. If you are really a humanist make worrys about those millions people without food.

by the way, im still no fan of bush

I’ve stated there are 2 camps – fundamentalists and moderates. The fundies are a train wreck, and the moderates (even though not directly harmful) legitimise the whole movement. Keep your faith/irrationality in the closet.

Did you ever ask why those people go without food?

i see 2 billion camps. cuz every person is diffrent.

That’s wonderful.

Election, painfully understandable. Re-Election, inexcusable.

hmmm 232 people (besides myself) have voted here…which means that when a new comment is posted, all of those people will have a new comment alert…which means that out of all those people, it is likely that at least one person will have an answer to my question. so i was just wondering, do any of you 231 people know if it’s true that steve from blue’s clues committed suicide or if that was just a terrible rumour? (i know, i know, i could just google it or post this somewhere relevant but there’s just so much anger here – warranted: yes, healthy: no – so i just thought i’d try to lighten the mood. with talk of suicide? yes. even that is less depressing than some of the posting that goes on here.)

you actually took the time to count how many ppl commented? wow.. thats sad.

Not the sharpest pencil in the box Seadoo. She’s referring to how many people voted, which is at the top of the page. It’s sad when you can’t even read a comment properly.

Two-hundred thirty-one people think this is the best. Three people are curious about this.

im just curious :)

I don’t man to be rude, but seadoo, most of your comments haven’t been of much higher intellect than that last one you just posted.

Hmm. “That didn’t work out like I planned.” Well, I suppose the topic did deviate briefly. Upon reflection, posting that comment probably wasn’t the best move, at least not on this item – maybe I should have asked the “Chocolate” people or the “Rain” people. I think that at the time I had been online for so long, brain function was beginning to deteriorate. (On the off chance that I piqued anyone’s interest, I did eventually Google it and was glad to find out that Steve Burns is indeed “alive and well”.) Carry on!

Your heart is in the right place.

Now back to messages of hate and vile.

Hey Vano, you have to give her a break. Your shit gets screwed when your in a polygamous mormon death cult.

well i haven’t died yet in my ‘cult’. probably cause i only have one mom and one dad.

George bush is a great president who as made some mistakes in the past but a good person would get overit and stop blamming him for their problems

not long ago a latin american ruler said that george bush is the stupidist president the U.S has ever had and went on to insult his iq bu reaallyy….no need to state the blody obvious!