Faith Lehane

Faith rocks!!

The show would not be same without Faith!!! She rocks!!!

Faith is arguablly the most offensive character in all of the Buffy The Vampire Slayer series. In my opinon she is second only to Dawn in that title.

 Why?

 Faith swore to protect the innocent and swore to use her power to protect humanity. She used her power to kill people in cold blood. She killed an innocent business man and a professor and did it all with a smile on her face. She almost chocked Xander to death when he tried to reach out and help her. She also tried to kill Willow and Angel. She went after Angel twice and posioned him with a lethal drug that nearly killed him.

 She tortured Wesley and did it with a sadistic smile on her face. She liked causing pain. She is no hero. She kidnapped Joyce (Buffy's mother) taunted her and tried to torture her and then she stole Buffy's body and raped her in every way a woman could be raped. She stole her body, used her body to sleep with other men and forced Buffy to deal with her crimes while she raped Buffy of her own body and life.

Faith is the trashiest character in the entire Buffy series. There are certaintly much better character's then her. She is a lauaghable "hero" and even "anti-hero" is too far of an endearment for a character as vile as her. Faith is the worst type of monster. What makes her so much worse then Spike and Angel?  The fact that all of her heinous crimes were done when she was a souled entity and when she had a concious. Spike and Angel were victim's. Faith never was and she willingly antagonized innocents. 

A to-the men.

Skinwalker evrything you said is true, but thats what makes her such a great character. No one said she was meant to be a rolemodel. She's complex. She was given this power and she used it for both good and bad. She was just trying to find her place and the evil just came easyier for her, but for the most part she was just trying to be saved.

I never thought Faith was a good character. I personally thought that Kendra was a much better sister Slayer to Buffy then Faith ever was. Faith is a disgrace to all of the previous slayers before her. She offends all of the previous slayers before her because she willingly chose to go against her duty to help people and fight the fight against evil and instead chose to join it. I think the problem with Faith's character is that she had no reason to be evil. She just decided one day that she wanted to be bad and she never looked back. We got very little conflict nor did we really get a reason why she turned bad. She just started working for the mayor and willingly killing people after that one accident in the alley.

 I didn't say anything about rolemodel. I said she is a laughable "hero" and "anti-hero". Which is what she is addressed as for the side polls and in her character description and I feel she doesn't go well in either category since she very much was a villian threw out most of her reign on both Buffy The Vampire Slayer and even in the Angel series.

Faith prodominently used her power for evil and to harm innocents while she reigned terror on anyone who was unfortunate enough to cross her path. Just look to her actions against Buffy, Willow, Wesley, Xander, Cordelia and Angel for clarification.

 Sorry but I can't see Faith's turn to the darkside as her "trying to find her place" while she was on her journey finding herself she was killing people for no good reason. The fact that she never even had to pay for her crimes further proves that she is even less hero material because she didn't even atone for her whole mess of crimes. Your right evil did come easier for her. Faith chose the easy route. The route towards power and the route that she chose led to mass murder, torture and pain for innocents. This why I can't see her as a true hero when she willingly chose the darkside over what was right. Faith isn't a hero. No hero willingly kills helpless people.

 As to Faith being saved. EVERYONE was trying to save her. Buffy, Xander, Giles, Wesley, Angel, ect. and each time they tried to help her she betrayed all of them.

Yes, but the only way she thought she could be saved was to die, which is what she was trying to do, get them to kill her.

At risk of oversimplifying... Faith was written to be a villain. Behaving villainously does not make her a bad character. It might make her a bad person, but that's different. Confusing the two is symptomatic of taking the whole thing too seriously. ;)

As far as having "no reason to do evil",  I don't see where you're getting that. I thought it was made quite clear to us why Faith went bad: being a slayer is traumatic. Buffy had friends, family, a good home, a watcher who cared about her on a personal level -- a whole support system in place to get her though it without her snapping like a twig.  Faith was a runaway without family or friends,  with one dead watcher behind her and another who turned out to be evil.  Buffy and friends may have tried to help the Faith, but from the beginning, their love was pretty limited and conditional. This is the whole point of the character: she's the anti-Buffy. She's exactly what Buffy would be under different circumstances.  Given the choice, she'd be Buffy, as evidenced by her attempts to steal Buffy's life (figuratively and literally). Sadly, she never had much of a choice.

Personally, I think Buffy could have quite easily 'saved' Faith before she turned to evil if she'd just been a bit less selfish with Faith, and a bit more willing to let her into the non-slaying aspects of her life. But Buffy's supposed to be teenage girl under extreme pressure, so I suppose a bit of selfishness is only natural to her character.

Skinwalker...no one is claiming Faith is a hero.  Even Faith knows she isn't a hero.  But you don't have to be a hero or even good to be an interesting character.  In fact, most of the typical heros are the most predictable and boring characters on TV.  It isn't a question of morality or good vs evil.  It's who is gonna surprise you most, which character is most interesting to watch, who develops and changes. 

Your whole arguement is based on the very closeminded viewpoint that everything is black and white.  If its not Buffy's way its wrong (speaking about predictable and boring characters).  Sure it was called Buffy the Vampire Slayer but that was one of the weaknesses of the show.   The idea that Buffy's way was the only right way to do anything.  And you are buying into that one trick pony.  One of the things that bothered me about the Faith's storyline on Buffy was that most of her story was created solely to make Buffy look good by comparison.  Like Buffy wouldn't look as good if someone not Buffy succeded.  All the supporting characters had episodes which featured them or gave some backstory or something to help the viewer understand them better.  Except, of course, Faith.  We have no idea where Faith came from.

Also I believe your analysis of Faith's character is faulty.  First off, Faith never swore to protect anyone.  Did she really have a responsibility to protect the masses and to eventually give her life?  She didn't violate some sacred slayer oath because she never consented to be a slayer in the first place.  The power was sort of thrust on her, she had no say in the matter.  You can't break a promise you never made.   

And as for commiting her crimes with a smile on her face...well, if you really think she was having a good time you obviously didn't catch on to the whole self-distructive theme going on.  Faith was one of the most conflicted, self-destructive, angst ridden characters on either show.  

She was isolated and couldn't reach out becuase she didn't trust anyone.  She didn't fit into the scoobies vanilla, high school drama world.  She was dealing with issues that the show did really address until later on in the series (sex for example).  Faith was ahead of her time on the show.  She would have fit in better if she'd been introduced in the fifth or sixth seasons when the gang wasn't as naive and critical of others.  She never had a chance in season three because everyone thought of her as backup for Buffy.  Buffy did it.  Willow and Xander did it.  Giles, supposedly Faith's watcher, did it.  Joyce was only glad Faith was there because Buffy had a better chance to go to college.  They only cared about Faith's wellbeing to the extent that it effected them. They use Faith just a badly as Ms. Post did, the scoobies just weren't as blatant.  

The scoobies attempts to include Faith or to reach out were for the most part laughable (the exemptions being Angel with the chains and possibly Xander the second time in the hotel room).   The most telling thing is Faith's living conditions.  The fact that not one of them tries to get her out of that rat trap proves that any attempts to "reach out" were just superficial.  They all see the squalor of the hotel but none of them care enough to help an underage girl find a decent place to live.  And according to several of the writer's comments during the special features of season three, Faith is younger than Buffy.  

These aren't justifications for Faith's actions just explanations as to why Faith makes a compelling character. 

Yes, Faith did kill and torture (even if one was an accident and Buffy was definitly an accomplice to the act).  But she was also repentant.  Hello, prison?  She willingly turned herself in.  And she stayed there until Wesley asked for her help.  She didn't escape because she was bored or for personal gain.  You must have missed those conversations she had with Angel about getting redemption.  She was genuinely trying to atone for her crimes and I believe if the show had continued we would have continued to see Faith working for redemption. 

What are your takes on other characters like Willow, Gunn, Connor, Anya, Wesley, and Giles?  All of which have taken lives.  In the last season of Angel, Wesley carries around guns and shoots people left and right.  Willow kills out of vengence and as already established in the Buffyverse thanks to Buffy's actions towards Anya (the episode in the frat house) vengence is a no no.  And Giles kills Ben, not to mention his involvement with the mark of eyghon (however you spell that).  Do you still like these characters?  Isn't murder always wrong or do you think some people can have excuses?  Anyway, I like my characters to be interesting and multi-faceted.  I guess I just prefer characters that require a little thought to understand.   

no one is claiming Faith is a hero.

Someone apparently is. Since she is eligiable to vote for "best hero on the side" of this page. I'm not talking about "interesting characters". I'm talking about weither Faith is a "hero" or an "anti hero" which she is explained to be on this page. Something I deeply disagree with, since she was a villian threw out most of her tenure on the show.

I don't think it's close minded. The fact of the matter is Faith isn't a hero. Someone who joyfully kills people and tortures them for no real reason isn't a hero. Faith chose the darkside because things were to hard for her because she felt alone and she was power hungry and that isn't a good enough reason to justify or understand her turning bad.

Do I believe that Buffy was a hero. Yes. I do. Why? Because Buffy sacrificed everything and always put other's first. She always put the world before herself and she always chose to do right rather then what would have been easier for her. She killed the man that she loved more then anything else in the world to save the world from eternal damnation, she gave her life and sacrificed herself time and time again to do what was right and to save innocent people and even when she was angry and and wanted vengence she never killed humans because their was a system in place for humans to pay for their bad deeds (prision, ect.)

I agree Faith had no backstory which is why I find her entire reasons for turning evil to be shallow and without any type of character depth. She turned evil because she wanted more power that was really her only reason. They never fleshed out why Faith turned evil and that's what makes her even faulty in the character development department. We got to know why Wesley, Giles, Willow and Gunn turned evil or why they did questionable things. We never got that with Faith. We never had solid reasoning for her actions. Just that Faith was tired of being in Buffy's shadow and because she would never be as good. Wesley and Willow turned to evil because they lost the one person in their lives that they loved more then anything. They wanted revenge for the people that killed their lovers. Giles killed to save the world from having to face a Hell goddess, Gunn killed to stop Fred from getting lost in her vengence. We got solid reasoning and development from all of those characters and Joss made sure that all of those characters understood the gravity of what they did after they went down that road. While I didn't agree with them killing humans we got a reason and we got to understand their motivations.

We never got half as much motivation and development with why Faith went evil. For power? Again weak writing and faulty character development. Faith had not one understandable reason to be evil. Just that she wanted power and even that was poorly written.

Faith had a duty and she chose to use the power that was given to her for evil. As to weither or not Faith enjoyed killing. Looking at the episode "Graduation Day Part 1" we see Faith kill the man with a smile on her face and their is no look of remorse shown. She liked killing and she very much enjoyed abusing Willow, Xander, Angel and Wesley. She enjoyed it very much.

The entire scooby gang tried to help Faith and all of them tried to reach out to her. With the exception of maybe Willow and Giles. Willow didn't reach out because she was jealous of Faith and Buffy's sister slayer connection and Giles acted more or less like a teacher/watcher then anything else. However Buffy opened up her entire life to Faith. Buffy even let Faith into her home on christmas. It was Faith who turned down Buffy because Faith didn't like Buffy's responsible nature.  A scene comes to mind where Buffy asked Faith when she wants to hang out and work on thier school projects together. Faith said how about you do it and i'll copy. Faith resented Buffy, Buffy tried time and time again to help her. She tried in "Bad Girls", "Amends", "consequences", "Revalations", ect. and was even willing to let by gones be by gones when Faith came out of her coma. But Faith still resented Buffy and wanted to hurt her. Which led to her kidnapping her mother and threatening to hurt Buffy's mom Joyce. The same woman who opended her home to her on Christmas because she didn't want Faith to be alone and she treated her horriablly. When that wasn't enough she stole Buffy's body and used said body to have sex with men. Faith raped Buffy and tried to steal her life. When Buffy was trying to help her and extend an olive branch AGAIN.

Xander also tried several times to help her and she ended up almost choking him to death. They all tried to reach out to Faith but Faith wanted power and she wanted to score one up on Buffy more then she wanted help.

Their is one thing you seem to be forgetting; Buffy tried to kill Faith. Also, the reason Faith resented Buffy is not just because she was jealous but also because Buffy acts like and thinks she's better than everyone, especially Faith. Their are realy only two charatcers from BtVS I didn't like and both their last names were Summers; Buffy and Dawn. They were both just to whiney, like they were the only one's who ever had problems. At least when Faith, along with most of the other scoobies, had problems it was interesting to watch how they solved them, even if it wasn't alway the best way to go about do so.

And as for you claiming that Faith is in no way a hero or even an anti-hero is kind of ridiculous, just because she did some evil doesn't change the fact that shehelped  save the world on more than one occasion. Just because she had a soul when she did the evil doesn't change the fact she more good than evil, just like Angel and Spike. Not to mention Andrew, who also killed while he had a soul but ended up helping to save the world. Do you question whether or not he is, the strictest sense, a hero.

Buffy tried to kill Faith

After Faith killed the professor and started coming after her friends and even then the final straw was when she came after Angel. Prior to that Buffy wasn't going to kill Faith. She was going to try to get her to come back from evil. It wasn't until Faith started killing innocent people and started coming after Buffy's friends and finally her lover that Buffy went after Faith. Prior to that Buffy was still trying to get Faith to come back on to her side.

They were both just to whiney, like they were the only one's who ever had problems.

Maybe Dawn acted like that but Buffy was in no way whiney. Buffy was strong and most of the time kept her problems to herself. When she had to face Angelus she wasn't whiney she was devestated but still kept fighting the fight against Good versus Evil. Never did she say how unfair life was nor did she make things all about herself. When Buffy was ressurected she thought of other's first and she told them a lie because she didn't want them to feel guilty about taking her out of heaven. When Buffy was told she had to kill her sister to save the world she didn't whine she found a way to save Dawn at cost to herself. Buffy didn't judge anyone. She saw everyone as equals. Giles, Willow and Xander always had her respect. Even when Xander who at times would get santimonious on Buffy. Buffy listened to what he said and thought about it. She always listened to her friends and her watcher.

shehelped  save the world on more than one occasion

I don't remember Faith stopping any apocolypse's. She actually helped the Mayor to his ascension. In season 3 she was basically the hitman for the mayor and was his righthand girl. If the Mayor needed something done he went to her to do it. In season 4 she wasn't much better she terrorized Buffy's mother and then stole Buffy's body and raped her figuratively and literally. Then on Angel she ended up trying to kill him and ended up terrorizing Wesley and Cordelia and to say that all Faith did was "some bad" is a complete understatement. As to her saving the world she never saved the world. Willow saved Angel's soul, Willow and Buffy enginered the plan to give all potential slayers, slayer abilities. Faith never once saved the world. She may have fought on the good side for a couple of episodes but she never saved the world. Spike was the one that "saved the world" when he blew up the hellmouth.

Skinwalker...once again you just can't seem to see the interesting things about Faith's character without making it all about Buffy.  We've heard your rather one track opinion that Faith isn't a hero.  Faith isn't very hero-like on most occasions.  And I, personally, am glad she isn't.  But the character of Faith is far more diverse, interesting, complicated, and compelling than most of the characters on the show and certainly more so than you're giving her credit for.  It's very obvious from your comments that you have a little thing for Buffy but put down your Buffy colored glasses for a second and remember I'm not talking about heroism.  Let me repeat this is not about being a hero.  So if you're next comment is merely a tired reiteration of Faith's lack of moral compass news flash we already know and I'll be forced to ignore you as you'll have proven yourself nothing more than boring and biased. Terrifying I know. 

Now as you do seem to be a tad obsessed with the old golden girl let's examine your comments more closely.  

"Never did she say how unfair life was nor did she make things all about herself. She always put the world before herself and she always chose to do right rather then what would have been easier for her."

Uh, hello you did watch the show right?  Buffy was not as selfless as you seem to think.  Buffy was constantly complaining about being a slayer and how she just wanted a normal life.  She complained when slaying messed up her social life, her hair, her prom, dating, her popularity, her clothes, her mom, school, the bronze, her friends, a nail...hmm she complained about pretty much everything as any teenager would.  Buffy is a teenager.  She is not some pillar of moral virtue.  She is human after all.  She makes mistakes.  Buffy, especially in the later seasons, ignores and disregards her friend's and Gile's feelings and advice.  One of these mistakes is of course being terribly self-absorbed.  You seem to want to canonize Buffy.  But the show was so good because it wasn't telling the tale of an invincible, morally superior Superman type hero.  It was the story of a fallible teenager trying to cope with these insane responsibilities.  

So according to your comments you believe it's okay to kill people if you've lost a loved one?  Well, then you have to give Faith a pass because her first watcher was brutally murdered in front of her. 

According to your comments it's okay that Willow skinned that dude alive and killed Rack and tortured Xander and beat up Buffy because Tara died.  And Gunn is cool because he only murdered to stop his girlfriend from murdering and there was no other way to stop her (he couldn't hit her over the head and stop her from making the portal right).  Wesley isn't wrong to kill because Fred just bought it and he wants vengence.  So revenge is a good thing then in your book?  Didn't you just say Buffy was a hero because she never took revenge even when she wanted to real bad?  And I'll have to disagree with you there.  Buffy did go to Faith's apt to kill her.  No doubt about it.  Yes, Faith was bad but is that an excuse for Buffy to commit murder?  Didn't you just say "she never killed humans because their was a system in place for humans to pay for their bad deeds (prision, ect.)"?   Okay then you bring up the whole question of intent.  Except Buffy, who wanted to kill Faith out of revenge, all the others' motivations were pretty apparent.  So you think because the writer's gave them readily available motivations they get a pass for murder?  The deceased are still dead no matter the reasons.  

What do you think about Angel then?   I seem to remember Angel giving his blessing to Dru and Dara to kill a bunch of human lawyers.  And in the last season Angel kills a bunch of human sercurity guys that work for the shadier side of Wolfram and Hart.  What about Connor?  Connor kills and beats up people left and right?

 The fact is there was a double standard on the show.  It's okay for Willow, Wesley, Giles, Angel, Gunn, Spike, and several others to kill and it's okay for Buffy to do just about whatever she wants but not all others beware. Just look at how Buffy treated Spike and Anya.  When Anya became a vengence demon again and resummed killing, Buffy no questions asked goes to kill her.  But when Spike starts killing again, Buffy slaps his knuckles and gets his chip taken out.  Some people got away with murder and some people confessed their crimes and went to prison to pay for them.

As for the gang reaching out to Faith...rubbish.  Buffy only invited Faith over for Christmas because her mommy made her.   They only cared about Faith when it paid to care and Faith knew it.  She knew she was on her own.  Think about the several scenes when Buffy awkwardly and insincerely tried to make small talk and the scene always ended with Buffy leaving and Faith looking forlorn alone in her abysmal hotel room.  The meetings, outings, and social events Faith was never included in.  Willow was jealous.  Oz was with Willow.  Giles didn't seem to notice her except when the team needed backup.  Xander never had a chance because he commited the cardinal sin and slept with her.  Angel was a vampire and was only concerned with Buffy.  Likewise, Joyce was only worried about Buffy.  And Buffy lied to Faith, ignored her, avoided her, and shunned her.  

Faith didn't want power as much as she wanted someone to genuinely care about her.   During Bad Girls when Faith and Buffy went on a little B and E spree, Faith was acting out hoping someone, namely Buffy, would take notice.  Faith latched onto Post when she first showed up because Post showed interest in her.  Faith wanted the discipline Gwen Post provided.  And the mayor, obviously, can you say father figure?  Duh.  Regardless of whether or not the mayor's concern was genuine (and I am of the opinion that it was), Faith thought he cared about her.  He showed her through his actions that he cared.  Wilkins listened to her, praised her, disciplined her, got her out of that hotel, gave her presents, and took her to get frozen yogurt for goodness sakes.  Is it any wonder that Faith was loyal to him and not the scoobies?  

Anyway...anyone with the slightest bit of insight and empathy could see this.  If you're only going to continue your rather tedious tirade about the awesomeness of Buffy to the disclusion of all others, why not go to the Buffy is the Best page?

and remember I'm not talking about heroism

Well I think that's the main difference. You aren't talking about heroism and I am. I am not talking about "interesting characters". I'm talking about weither Faith is a hero in the television series or not.

 She complained when slaying messed up her social life

In the first season yes. That was practically a stable in the first season of the show. She wanted to be a normal highschool girl. But as the series progressed she accepted her fate and she accepted the fact that she couldn't be a normal girl. From season 4/5 and beyond Buffy fully excepts who she is and what her duty is as the Slayer. She grew up and that was the big change in her in those years. The transition from the bright, innocent, happy girl to the defeatist woman, who lost and suffered but still fought on the side of good even with all of her losses. That was a key theme of the series from season 5 and onward. Joyce's death, Giles leaving her, Angel leaving her, Riley leaving her, Buffy being thrusted into being the parental figure, The loss of higher education, working in the Double meat palace, ect.

Buffy, especially in the later seasons, ignores and disregards her friend's and Gile's feelings and advice

I don't remember that happening. Perhaps in Season 4 when Buffy and her friends started drifting a part. But after that I don't remember any instances where Buffy completely ignores Willow or Xander. I'm not remembering any episode where Buffy ignored them. Even in "Selfless" where Buffy and Xander are arguing about weither or not she should kill Anya Buffy says that their is no other way to stop Anya then to kill her and Xander disagreee's. She asks Xander to find another way because she doesn't see it. Buffy always heard her friends out and was always there when they needed her. With the exception of "Normal Again" and "Weight Of The World" where Buffy went insane and catatonic. Buffy helped Willow get over her addiction to magic in season 6. Again i'm drawing a blank to the times Buffy ignored Willow and Xander. She perhaps didn't listen to Giles that one time in "Lies My Parent's Told Me" but that was because Giles betrayed her when he went behind her back and planned to kill Spike.

So according to your comments you believe it's okay to kill people if you've lost a loved one?

No. I said it was an understandable motivation. I can understand Willow and Wesley wanting revenge on the people who killed their lovers. As to Faith and her reasons for turning evil. That wasn't it. Faith never loved anyone. Faith didn't turn bad because someone killed someone she loved. She turned evil more or less because she wanted power. That isn't deep. That isn't understandable. That's petty. That's shallow and that isn't enough to make her actions any more comprehensiable.

According to your comments it's okay

Again that isn't what I said. Please read more carfeully. I said it made sense WHY they turned bad not that it made it okay.

Yes, Faith was bad but is that an excuse for Buffy to commit murder?

If that is the only way for Buffy to stop Faith from killing and torturing then yes. Faith at that point was a several time cold-blooded murderess. Buffy had to stop her from killing people and that was the only way to stop her. Faith made it pretty clear that she wasn't going to stop and she also made it clear that she wasn't going to let anyone put her in prision. At that point that was the only way for Buffy to stop Faith from killing people. Same way with Anya.

The deceased are still dead no matter the reasons.  

My point wasn't about murder. My point was understanding character motivations for why they went evil and my point was to show the difference between why those character went evil and why Faith went evil (or lack their of). It's always wrong to murder people. That was something the show always made clear. That killing humans was not right.

What do you think about Angel then

Angel was wrong as well, and he knew it. Which was why he fired his staff. He knew he was wrong and he knew he was going down a path of a darkness and evil and that was also one of the main themes of that season.

 But when Spike starts killing again

Spike and Anya are two different cases. Just as Angel and Angelus are. Spike was being controlled by evil and he was being mainpulated. Anya chose to kill those people knowing what she was doing and in complete control and she had a conscience. Spike wasn't. Spike was being mainpulated and controlled. Anya wasn't. Different situations.

Faith didn't want power as much as she wanted someone to genuinely care about her. 

Even when people expressed concern and care for her and were trying to help her she rebuffed them each time. Several times Buffy reached out to Faith only for Faith to stab her in the back. Buffy wanted to be friends with her. Buffy several times in season 3 and 4 tried to befriend her and even after Faith came out of her coma wanted to let things go and be friends. Faith even acknowleged this in "This Years Girl" as well as in "Sanctuary". Buffy tried to help Faith and Faith slapped her each time. In Bad Girls and Consequences Buffy tried to help Faith but Faith was more or less concerned about one upping her. In "Revalation" and "Amends" Buffy tried to reach out. She even tried to kill Xander when he wanted to help her. Wesley also thought Faith needed help in the first season of Angel and when he told Angel that Faith needed help not a beat down he ended up being tortured.

Buffy lied to Faith, ignored her, avoided her, and shunned her

I don't remember this happening. I remember Buffy and Faith talking to one another and making jokes while they patrolled. Buffy even felt a closeness with Faith that she didn't with Willow. So I don't agree with your arguement that Buffy ignored, shunned and avoided her. Because even Willow and Xander felt out of the loop when Buffy and Faith became close due to them both being Slayer's. Willow was jealous and angered by thier bond and hated that she was losing Buffy to Faith and that she was being replaced in the "Best friend area".

why not go to the Buffy is the Best page?

 I actually didn't want to compare Faith to Buffy because when it comes down to it Faith has problems, flaws and issues that don't concern Buffy at all. You were the one that started comparing her to all these other characters and all of these other situations. IMO it just redirects the focus to others to make it so Faith doesn't look as bad when she very much was. I would have been fine just discussing Faith with no one else being brought into it. You were the one who brought Buffy into this.

Ah, Skinwalker.  You still can't see past that whole hero bit.  Oh, well.  Your loss.  Good luck.

The thing I don't understand about Faith is how she could just kill innocent people for no reason. I mean I can understand why Wesley and Willow did it, I can understand why Gunn killed. He was terrified of losing Fred and he didn't want to lose her to vengeance so he killed the professor. Not the most thoughtout plan but I can understand why he did it. He was terrified of losing Fred and he didn't know how to stop her so he made the only desicion he felt he could or else Fred would be lost to him forever. I can understand Giles. He didn't want the world to have to deal with another emergance from a Hellgoddess.

But I don't understand Faith and why she chose to kill people for the Mayor. I don't understand how she could do it. How she could kill an innocent person and enjoy it. I understand why Vampires kill. They have no souls, they need to kill to survive and of course there evil. But I don't understand how Faith could kill and I just don't understand her motivation for killing. I can understand why people murder. I just listed a bunch of characters who have but I don't understand's Faith reasoning and thus I can't enjoy her character because I don't understand her motivations or reasons for doing what she does. She's was just so cold with the murders of the people. I mean why did she spend two seasons killing people? Was it because she was lonely, because she wanted power? That isn't enough. That only goes so far and not far enough to understand all of what she did. I don't understand it. I just don't. I mean I even understand why Anya did what she did. She was broken hearted and left at the alter and the man she loved dumped her more or less. So she went back to being what was stable and comfortable. A deamon. But I don't understand Faith and why she killed. I'm at a complete loss with why and the answers that were given weren't sufficent enough.

I hate how everyone is either all for Buffy or all for Faith. They're both complex characters that change a lot throughout the run of every Buffyverse related thing. Faith came from a broken home and a broken life. The only person she trusted was ripped to shreds by the one vampire she couldn't kill. Then she comes to LA and finds the scoobie gang which she immediately feels comfortable with. Only one problem. Buffy has a problem with Faith getting so comfy and claims she's "taking over her life." Buffy then pushes her away and stuff hoping Faith will basically get out of her life, or as Buffy puts it "stop taking over her life." Faith starts feeling so completely out of place that she feels that she has no one again. That's also shown in the episode "Revelations" when the scoobie gang has the intervention. Xander tells Faith it was a meeting, not an intervention, and Faith just assumes she's not important enough to be with the rest of the group. Then, here's the big thing here, Faith and Buffy fight. Their first real slayer vs. slayer rumble. And they fight because Faith thought she was doing good, while Buffy was saving Angel, her boyfriend. Faith however had not been told that Gwendolyn Post was lying to her, so Faith figured Buffy was just defending her boyfriend regardless of what side he's on. Buffy then continues to put Angel before Faith many many many MANY times in the future, until she finally takes it to extreemes and attempts to kill Faith in order to save Angel. Now, yeah, Faith was the one who poisoned Angel, but still if Buffy had been truly trying to save Faith, she wouldn't have attempted to kill her. When Faith wakes up, she's confused and the last thing she remembers is being put into a coma for a boy that Buffy has, as far as Faith knew at the time, gotten tired of and broke up with. Then Faith really shows how this is all because of misinterpretations caused by Buffy when she kidnaps Joyce in order to teach Buffy a lesson. She clearly states that the reason everything is happening is because Buffy puts her boyfriend and her best friends before the people that truly matter, family. And yes, I do believe that Faith considered Buffy family. Buffy was the only one who ever understood Faith and even attempted to talk to her. She was the only person Faith even remotely had. So Faith goes to kill Joyce in order to prove to Buffy that some people are more important than "jumping onto her new boyfriend." And yeah, Faith steals Buffy's body, but if you paid attention to the episode you'd also know that Faith didn't do it intentionally. She has no idea what the device would do, all she knew was that it was supposed to give her another chance at life. Faith, however evil she may have been, never stopped killing vampires. She even went as Buffy to kill vampires that had taken a church hostage. If she was truly evil, she would've just let the hostages die. Then, when she sees Buffy sporting the new "Faith" look(in otherwords, Buffy walked in while still in Faith's body), Faith beat her own body up to get back at herself for everything wrong that she had done. She then flees in order to get away from everything. Faith, wanting revenge on herself, decides to go after the one man that she has never been able to kill, who she knows can easily kill her. Angel. She seeks him out with the help of Wolfram & Hart in order to get him to end her life. When this doesn't work she recieves his help at redemption and even tells Buffy that she knows she can never make it up to her. She then attempts to tell Buffy why she's done the things she's done, but once again, Buffy refuses to listen to her or her cries for help. Faith then decides the only way to end things is to send herself to jail where she stays until she's needed in order to take down the Beast. In the end, Faith is following Angel's great example of redemption-seeking. Faith is such a complex character for someone who was in just enough episodes to fill one full season.

i know every one love this serie but i really dont i know it got pretty much every thing in it but still is bad i like fell the shitnes in it, it dosent got that nice kling se isent like reall slayers "Van helsing is not a slayer he is a proffesor if you dident know" eny whay dont got so much to say about this serie so i will keep my mouth shout till the day come when i find the most bad episod ever and then i will kill every on who likes this serie